Hattie...it's disappointing to me that the Vatican's response to all these reports from journalists and others who also were involved is DENIAL and "it's a liberal fantasy." Do you suppose the seminaries teach these people to lie?? it feels like we're dealing with a bunch of very crafty first-graders.
Diana: I agree. We won't know what he'll do until he does it. As it says in the bible, "by their fruits you will know them." I'm not encouraged so far. There is so much romance and fantasy involved in all the pageantry--and the immovable patriarchy of it all. I'm sure these cardinals (and the lesser ranks, also) BELIEVE what they're saying about abortion, same-sex marriage, contraception, and so on. But these are BELIEFS. That doesn't make them absolute truths, despite what they tell us about the pope's supreme mystical power of infallibility. As Catholics or any other religious believers, we have an obligation to seek out the truth ourselves, not just swallow what they pour on us from the pulpit. The church is, after all, those who belong to it. It's not the Vatican or the Pope or the rest.
I hesitate to comment on the Pope because I'm not Catholic and don't really know the inner workings of the Vatican (does anybody really?). I read many conflicting reports, but one thing is sure,he's conservative on issues like abortion, contraception, gay marriage, etc., so I don't expect him to reform the Church on any of those fronts.
also, Francis is a JESUIT, and that has two basic meanings to anyone who ever went through Catholic school: !) a member of the society of Jesus and 2) someone who dissembles or practices mental reservation when speaking what he terms "the truth."
We have two St. Francises in the church who come immediately to mind: One is the saint from Padua who loved the birds and animals, and the other is St. Francis Xavier--founder of the Jesuits. Everyone is racing to claim the first saint as the new pope's patron and inspiration. And as usual, we won't really know which one it is unless someone slips up and tells the truth for a chance.
ah, forget what I said about Francis and the Jesuits. I'm just being judgmental and nasty. We all get a chance to sink our own ship. I like it that he's concentrating on the poor. Who else is doing that these days but the nuns? He and they might make a great team! A better Catholic church.
"As Catholics or any other religious believers, we have an obligation to seek out the truth ourselves, not just swallow what they pour on us from the pulpit. The church is, after all, those who belong to it. It's not the Vatican or the Pope or the rest."
The "Church" is not a temporal place but a spiritual community of believers.
Well said, Diana. Do you think there can be spiritual communities of nonbelievers, too? What really drives me nuts about religions these days is the BELIEFS. And I don't consider beliefs to be the same as truths.
It's amazing, all right.
ReplyDeleteHattie...it's disappointing to me that the Vatican's response to all these reports from journalists and others who also were involved is DENIAL and "it's a liberal fantasy." Do you suppose the seminaries teach these people to lie?? it feels like we're dealing with a bunch of very crafty first-graders.
DeleteDiana: I agree. We won't know what he'll do until he does it. As it says in the bible, "by their fruits you will know them." I'm not encouraged so far. There is so much romance and fantasy involved in all the pageantry--and the immovable patriarchy of it all. I'm sure these cardinals (and the lesser ranks, also) BELIEVE what they're saying about abortion, same-sex marriage, contraception, and so on. But these are BELIEFS. That doesn't make them absolute truths, despite what they tell us about the pope's supreme mystical power of infallibility. As Catholics or any other religious believers, we have an obligation to seek out the truth ourselves, not just swallow what they pour on us from the pulpit. The church is, after all, those who belong to it. It's not the Vatican or the Pope or the rest.
I hesitate to comment on the Pope because I'm not Catholic and don't really know the inner workings of the Vatican (does anybody really?). I read many conflicting reports, but one thing is sure,he's conservative on issues like abortion, contraception, gay marriage, etc., so I don't expect him to reform the Church on any of those fronts.
ReplyDeletealso, Francis is a JESUIT, and that has two basic meanings to anyone who ever went through Catholic school: !) a member of the society of Jesus and 2) someone who dissembles or practices mental reservation when speaking what he terms "the truth."
DeleteWe have two St. Francises in the church who come immediately to mind: One is the saint from Padua who loved the birds and animals, and the other is St. Francis Xavier--founder of the Jesuits. Everyone is racing to claim the first saint as the new pope's patron and inspiration. And as usual, we won't really know which one it is unless someone slips up and tells the truth for a chance.
ah, forget what I said about Francis and the Jesuits. I'm just being judgmental and nasty. We all get a chance to sink our own ship. I like it that he's concentrating on the poor. Who else is doing that these days but the nuns? He and they might make a great team! A better Catholic church.
ReplyDeleteWhat you said here, I agree with completely:
ReplyDelete"As Catholics or any other religious believers, we have an obligation to seek out the truth ourselves, not just swallow what they pour on us from the pulpit. The church is, after all, those who belong to it. It's not the Vatican or the Pope or the rest."
The "Church" is not a temporal place but a spiritual community of believers.
Well said, Diana. Do you think there can be spiritual communities of nonbelievers, too? What really drives me nuts about religions these days is the BELIEFS. And I don't consider beliefs to be the same as truths.
ReplyDelete